Would you like to discuss euthanasia?

[Katie]

There was an interesting discussion on our national radio last night, called Cross-Country Checkup on CBC. (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation)

The question was: "Would you support legal euthanasia?" or words to that effect. It made me wonder if this is a suitable subject for discussion here. So many of us have been in the position of wishing the pain would go away any way, including death. There are a number of posts on every board touching on this very subject. "The pain was so great I wished I could die".

So I was wondering how seriously have people wished for the ability to put ourselves or other family members/friends out of their misery, as is legally done in other countries like the Netherlands (I believe).

Is it just the pain talking at the time, or should we seriously look at this as a humane practice that should be legislated? We often say that our animals are treated better than we are in these circumstances. We wouldn't let our dogs suffer with the sort of pain we do, day in and day out. We would in fact be charged with cruelty, yet our human doctors don't see any problem with their statements..."we don't operate JUST for pain".

I have to admit that I would like to have the choice when the time came, to end it on my terms, with the help of a very compassionate doctor or knowledgeable friend. But I have wished for that several times over the past twenty years, and knowing what I know now, there is no way I would have wanted to miss all that life has given me so far. Even the pain was a gift, a learning experience at times. It taught me to have empathy for others, which I never would have understood without going through it myself.

Just musing at an ungodly hour. Or is this a taboo subject? From what I caught on the radio, the majority of callers wanted the privilege of ending their suffering on their terms.

[Cindylou]

Very interesting Katie. I think it shouldn't be a taboo subject, but I'm sure there will be some folks who think it should. This will be quite interesting to see some of the responses. Personally, I do struggle with the premise that taking our lives under any circumstances is justified....because of my belief system. That said, I certainly get why a chronic pain sufferer or a dying cancer patient would want to. This one is a tuffy for me.

[KBear]

That's a hard one. I have definitely have wished that I could die, because the pain was so great. I have also wished that I could just go to the hospital and they would just sedate me for a few months, so I could just sleep through it. Or, better yet, maybe those insensitve jerks, we call them pain dr's, could treat us better so we wouldn't want to die (can you tell this is a touchy subject? LOL).

I really don't know, there is no right or wrong answer; but I definitely see both sides of this argument. Before I had back pain, I would have said definitely no, that it should not be allowed, that it is God's decision when to take you. Now that I have had a taste of suffering, I see why people would choose to end it. I would have a harder time saying it is ok for someone who is not going to die from their condition, like us (although we may wish we could), than say a terminal cancer patient. My Christian beliefs definitely influence my opinions too. If I were not a Christian, I would probably say it is fine regardless. You are right in that this is a very tabboo subject, and it is such a personal one, I really just don't know.

[ajj1001]

I don't think it should be a taboo subject. I'm happy to discuss why I think it would be wrong but able to respect someone else's right to think differently.

[mark-Perth]

I don't think it should be a taboo subject. I'm happy to discuss why I think it would be wrong but able to respect someone else's right to think differently.

Hi Alison

What U said is so right.

Everyone has different wishes based upon there experience.

I think it should be legal but I definately arent going to push my thoughts on anyone else and would definately repect anyones feelings otherwise as I can see both sides having wished it would end but now happy to have come thru it. Its everyones personal choice based upon what they feel and they should be respected either way.

Luckily people can go to Switzerland where euthanasia is allowed.

I dont think its just a simple case of wanting to die though, you need to have physc tests first and have a genuine reason or disability/illness.

Its better than people trying themselves and ending up a vegetable if they dont succeed.

[Justin]

Katie, this is an interesting thread. Just an FYI: in the United States, physician assisted-suicide is legal in Oregon, Montana and Washington state.

[daveinaustin]

I gave this thread significant thought over the past day, both from a philisophical and religious viewpoint. Although I tried to be concise, you'll note it didn't work!

In short, I believe if Euthanasia was legal, it should only be for terminally ill patients with deep suffering, and should never be considered for those in chronic pain. The reason is psychological. If Euthanasia was legal for those in chronic pain, it could lead some people into a downward spiral of pain that could defeat their drive that otherwise could have been turned around. However, I do believe that we need substantially better pain management, treatment, and therapy for those in chronic pain.

Our lives, even for as much suffering as we have, are intertwined with many others. As long as we continue to have hope, try to find the right doctors to keep us ahead of the pain, have encouragement from others, and find meaning for our lives, then life will always be worth it.

We can find meaning in much simpler ways than one could imagine. Providing comfort to others through this discussion forum is one method that could be enough. You don't need to win the nobel prize. Just help one or two people through their time of need.

Some lessons I've learned from some wise members of are community are:
1. Look forward and not get caught up in the past.
2. Hope and optimism are key.

There is so much research going on right now that maybe in a year or two, there will be more solutions to reduce pain for many of our conditions. Maybe not. But, the important point is to maintain hope.


-Dave

[Cindylou]

daveinaustin, I so appreciate your thoughtful response and have the utmost respect for you, however, on this one I have to agree to disagree. Your suggestions are so much easier said than done. Based on your premise of hope, even terminally ill patients could and have miraculously recovered. Not all, but some. By the same token, chronic pain patients certainly can have their moments of despair, when #1 if they have been suffering for years and years of pain and every treatment they have subjected themselves to has not offered them relief from intolerable pain. Why keep on? Who is to say if relief will ever be obtained? That can be the mindset of folks who have lost hope. Nothing has worked. #2 The terminally ill patient's life is also intertwined with many other people too. Don't think for a minute it's not. And, let's not forget #3 reason: so many chronic pain patients are pathetically under treated for their pain, it is an abomination. Is it any wonder many think, feel, or sadly act on ending their lives due to their pain not being managed properly. No one is hearing them and/or they may be accused subtly, or directly, of drug addiction. Another abomination. I guess what I am trying to say is, if it were in my belief system, that I think it only fair that terminally ill and chronic pain sufferers, with well documented histories should be free to choose to live (is it really living?) or to die.

[Katie]

Well, since I started this, I think I'll wade in now.

Justin, I am thrilled to hear that some patients have an option in your country. At least somewhere. That is much more open minded than what we have here. There is one case here that has always ripped my heart. A family had a severely disabled daughter who they had nursed at home since birth, about twelve years, I believe.

She had undergone countless surgeries and suffered many disabilities, both physically and mentally. She would scream and cry for weeks after treatments, especially surgery, because the doctors couldn't seem to get the pain under control. (Sound familiar?)

When the doctors said that she had to have another surgery, the dad couldn't stand to see her suffer any longer, and euthanized her by asphyxiating her with carbon monoxide from their pick-up, using a hose into the cab. Her father was found guilty of murder and is still in prison, over a decade later. His whole life is torn apart, even though his family supported his decision to do it.

I took it as an act of mercy. He was a farmer, and said he wouldn't put one of his animals through that torture. That he loved his daughter more than that and I agree with him. There was no future for that little girl, and no laws here where she could find relief at any one else's hand. If the pain could have been kept under control, I might have a different opinion. But to make a little girl suffer like that, with her having no ability to understand what was happening to her, well in my mind, that was criminal. I think he was the bravest man ever.

So yes, I was thinking of unending chronic pain when I first started this discussion. But my feelings are the same for terminal illness that comes with unbearable pain. We don't all have the good fortune to die quietly and peacefully like a dear friend of mine did this weekend. I hope someone has the courage to put me out of my misery if the time comes, and I am suffering.

Years ago, I was suffering from depression and was the closest I've ever been to wanting to end it all. It was the lowest point of my life, ongoing over almost a year, and looking back it was much worse than what I am experiencing now. With all I'm going through, that sounds odd now. So I understand the difference between physical and mental pain.

Of course I'm so very glad that I made it through that period of my life, and to be honest, it was only because of my children that I stayed. Without them, I would have missed all the great parts of my life that I am enjoying now.

But if for some reason I could no longer keep my physical pain under control as I thankfully can do now, then I hope someone would think enough of me to help me end it. I truly value life (most days ), but not at any cost. And I hope to never judge anyone who feels the need to stop the hurt. But I also ask the powers above to help me understand when that time is appropriate and when it isn't.

[daveinaustin]

This is such a challenging topic. One which might not have a universally right answer. I know for certain that I do not have the right answer. But, can only respond based from my perspective and experiences.

CL, like I tell my Engineering team, if everybody agrees, then only one person is doing the thinking. The basis for good discussion is to have points and counter-points. I also have deep respect for you and have appreciated your openness on countless discussions.

I've tried to address your three points below, and included Katie's story.


#1: For most of us with chronic pain, there is a period of despair. This could be a short period of time, periodic, or ongoing for years. My personal concern is that legalizing Euthanasia could actually create more despair. If it is a legitimate option, it could cause some people to start thinking down this path, instead of trying to fight and maintain hope.

Honestly, I feel that a general rule to allow Euthanasia, would cause some people with chronic pain to psychologically convince themselves that euthanasia is their only option. Hence, I personally believe more people will needlessly "give up" than need be. When it comes to pain, the mind plays a powerful role in how we perceive and handle it.

Keep in mind that you are a fighter, and have not let the pain win. This is one of your traits that I deeply admire. In turn, you are not the typical person in chronic pain.

There are chronic pain situations worse than death. It absolutely breaks my heart to hear Katie's story about the father. My perspective would certainly be different if I were in his shoes.

There is a French saying that "rules are meant to be broken." Maybe the middle ground is for an "understanding" that allows for the exceptional cases, or for compassionate doctors to indicate to the exceptional cases about the places where euthanasia is legal. Note: Due to today's litigious environment, I'm certain this would never be a reality.


#2: I fully agree that the terminally ill also have intertwined lives with many others, and there are periodic, miraculous recoveries. But, miraculous recoveries are not typical.

Deciding upon Euthanasia would be one of the most difficult decision an individual and family could make. But, there is so much suffering with some terminally ill individuals that this could be the one case, if any, where Euthanasia could be permitted.

Unfortunately, I have seen too many venerable people dying from slow, terminal deaths, who would easily choose Euthanasia if given a choice.

#3: I agree 100%!!! We need better pain management. Period. If we had better pain management, there would be many terminally ill and/or chronic pain people who could manage their lives with less despair.

Even on this board there is a recent story where someone's pain management doctor cut him off because he needed to increase his medicinal dosage only one time. This drives me friggen nuts!!! Cutting the poor guy off put him into despair that easily could have been avoided from any doctor with a sense of humanity.

I've thought about laws for Euthanasia for a long time. As mentioned, I know that I don't have the answer. My heart breaks for anyone in such a condition where euthanasia is an answer. However, my concern is even more for people who think there is no light at the end of the tunnel, when maybe it could be around the corner.

Similar to Katie, though, it is possible that when my children have grown, and if my chronic pain worsens, I could have a different thought. However, my hope is that our technology and understanding of pain management will improve by then. But then again, I'm typically an optimist.

-Dave