[Artificial Disc Replacement / Cervical] 4 level cervical ADR (Dr. Bertagnoli)

[stogner245]

Hi. I am new to the site and had a 4 level surgery in germany with Bertagnoli in August. I am very pleased overall and am doing 90% better I think. I had severe ddd and severe bilaterall foraminal stenosis at c5/6/7 with the other levels not far behind. My condition became unbearable over the last 3 years, so i had to do something. I had a lot of post surgical pain with I am sure was distraction pain and maybe from being tied down so tight for 6 hours. That pain is mostly gone and my rom is great. Will be glad to help anyone who is deciding about doing this. I am a Chiropractor and now have a much better understanding of the problems one can develop over the years after injuries and genetic associated ddd. Terrible time fighting with Bluecross. Anyone who has been able to get this paid for . Help with advice if you have some good ideas. Thanks Larry

[Hooch]

A chiropractor! Sweet irony!

Good to hear you've done well after a big op, and welcome.

[KBear]

Welcome Larry to the forum. We have several in the medical field on here, but no chiropractors so far, so I'm sure you will have lots of valuable information for us. Sounds like you are doing very good post op, especially considering the big surgery you had.

I see I'm not the only one curious about a chiropractor having back surgery. I'm sure I'm generalizing big time (and hope that I don't sound rude, I'm just a curious person); but from my experience the 3 chiros I saw acted as if surgery were the absolute worst thing I could ever do. The last one I was seeing was a great guy, really helped my sick kiddo by doing adjustments on her, but it just wasn't helping me. I think I was too far gone for any benefits to be noticeable. I was seeing him when the doctor that I was with told me that there was nothing left to do for me and I needed chronic pain management. Anyhow, I told him I was considering surgery and you would have thought I said I was getting half my brain removed for research- he was stunned. This seems to be a general theme with chiros (at least the ones I dealt with) it was like chiropractic was the answer to everything and the rest was junk. I do believe chiropractic has great benefits for many and is a valuable tool, but like the rest of medicine, there isn't one answer for everything. So just curious what led you to surgery? What was your opinion of spine surgery before you had back pain?

On Blue Cross, check the insurance forums for information on which companies have paid for surgery and in which states. The quality of your coverage also depends on if it is through an employer or an individual policy (this is what I have because my husband is self employed). In general the individual policy covers the least. If you have insurance through an employer, you can petition them to get the insurance company to pay (and depending on what kind of coverage they have, depends on how much they can 'make' the insurance company cover). Good luck on your fight!

[stogner245]

Thanks for all the questions. I see we could have quite a conversation going on here. I know what you are talking about with some chiropractors. There are so many types of practiciioners and such a sense in some of them not really understanding all the complications of spinal disease, makes them sound ignorant and hard to believe. I own a medical and chiro. clinic and have for the past 10 years. Before that i practiced 10 years hearing and seeing many stories about surgery just as you have. I guess to really know about the success of surgery or its failure, it takes more than a 4 year education that does not prepare anyone for the real world. Some schools are better and teach more science based biomechanical information, some are stuck very much in old beliefs that we can cure anything. It just doesnt work that way and I have had to sort through the bull to learn from many sources. Am I right ?? I am a person of science and always try to learn and understand which led me to surgery. My condition had gotten so bad that there was no conservative tx that was going to help. Chiropractic and massage and traction have kept me going and having a good qualilty of life after 35 -40 years of neck pain. So yes chiro. does work and I have seen things treated that i didnt understand but it still workedIt took me years to undrsstand why our treatments work and that is another story. I had severe stenosis that was only getting worse, so that is where my search started. I saw a neurosurgeon who only wanted my money and could offer a fusion or a adr at one level. well i have 5 bad levels 4 fixed and one more with a larger heriation c2/3. I think i got off track here. anyway, in my opinion, many of the surgeries fail, because they were never needed to start with. I win with some patients and a few need surgery, in which case i send them in that direction. Chiropractic care has changed for me over the years and so has my opinion of my profession. While i support it as much as ever. I now know we can not fix everything and the problem usually is the doctor, not the method. I hope this answers some of your questions. just ask away and you will hear back from me.

[Hooch]

If you have truly examined your profession from a neutral and scientific point of view I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Imo chiropractic manipulation can be useful as a short term treatment for acute pain, helpful in mobilising joints locked up by painful spasm. Or in initially freeing long standing postural inadequacies. Beyond that I think it serves no purpose, and the next step of rehabilitation involves core muscle activation and biomechanical awareness before conditioning. Your thoughts?

[stogner245]

Hi. I certainly am getting some good questions about chiropractic, I think that with my association with a medical practice and my education have lead me into an objective view of our profession. I do not hang out with chiropractors much, so i cant speak for all the others out there. As in any profession, we have some strange people. I see more idiot mds than i do chiropractors. To understand the long term benefits requires a healthy involved understanding of the nervous system and how it controls every part of our existance. Adjusting the spine improves function biomechically and can make changes in the afferent and efferent nerve signals that control everything we are. The current thought that you have about us, is what i am seeing more of and that is alot of what we do at our office. It is what insurance companies and lawyers are looking for and willing to pay for from what i am seeing. You are certainly ok in having your opinion and I can see where you are coming from, however if you will allow yourself to be open to what chiropractic can do to make lives more healthy and longer, you may change you mind about what all we can help. My association with medical and seeing what they do has opened my mind to accept what they do. And everyone in my office sometimes cant believe the stupid things they also do when they dont know what to do. Let me get back to you later. I am just getting started if you care to listen. Larry

[KBear]

Thanks for answering Larry. I wish more chiropractors (and doctors for that matter) had your point of view. I wished chronic pain on my doctors more than once, so they could 'get' what it was I was going through. I was just like most of them prior to my pain too, thought back surgery was bad and couldn't understand chronic pain.

I'm curious if you still get adjustments in your surgical area? There are some who have seen chiropractors after surgery, but I think the majority is scared it could mess up surgery. What's your opinion?

Thanks for being so open to answering all of our questions!
Kathy

[stogner245]

Usually in my office, I am very conservative with most post surgeries, as they are fusions instead of the adr. in fact I have never treated a pt. with a device like mine. Since the fusion leads to ajacent level syndrome, I know that sooner or later, they will be back in pain, I treat for mobilzation with mutiple methods and try not to get to aggressive. I dont want to be blamed for the natural progression of degeneration and that is usually where I think many accusations have been made against us for doing harm. Well if that joint is beyond help, they are headed to surgery anyway, so we are an easy scapegoat for pts.and other doctors to use. I have learned so much that i didnt know due to this experience, I know that my knoweldge of the spine is way ahead of most doctors including some surgeons. I walked myself through this so many times, i think i could have done it. Just kidding. Excuse any sarcasm please. AS to getting adjusted, I have a new dc taking over for me and I have trained her to adjust my replaced segements and it does great. My rom was about 0 and now is 80% of normal. neck feels good, but still improving. They told me forceful manipulation was ok after 12 weeks and started slow and easy. so yes i think is ok, but not to much force. in MY EXPERIENCE WITH low backs, i never twist them anymore and I use a drop table for what i do,Most low back pain in the l5 area comes from sacroilaic rotation and is easlily corrected. Hope this answers your question. If you have a dc you can trust and knows what to do, maybe they can help Larry

[Cindylou]

Welcome Larry, glad you found us. We don't get quite as many new folks who come on board after their surgery, and as Kathy said, I think you are our first chiropractor, so we are glad to have you. And you have been a trooper with all the bombardment of questions right off the plate. I'm curious how you found Dr. Bertagnoli. Was it through your research? You certainly picked a top notch surgeon, so good for you. (I used Dr. B. as well, but for my lumbar area.) I'm glad you are finding your surgery successful and still recovering, so there is room for even more improvement. Excellent news. Good luck, Cindylou

[stogner245]

Wow. you have really been through some serious stuff. I hate to even complain. I know how disabling lower back issues are and see them on a regular basis, but situation is extreme. I hope you have good results with all you do. I found Bertagnoli after seeing a neurosurgeon in Pinehurst N.C. We talked about the prodisc and he could only do one level even though i needed multilevel. He did a pitiful exam and made a quick decision as to what he could do. I was very unimpressed with his attitude and failure to address my concerns, like what about the others. I started researching all this and first looked at Stenum. after going to this site, I saw Bertagnolis name quite a bit, so i started researching him and liked what i saw. You will not believe the number of people who thought i was crazy to do this. I just knew that I was very upset with the entire U.S. program of care and the excessive costs associated with poor results. Basically I started the process and hoped my insurance would understand the pain and disablity I was experencing, I could barely make it through a day of work and had to have my head positioned perfect each night just to get a few hours of sleep. My arm was so weak I couldnt lift it over my head. I just proceeded anyway and had hope that it would all work out. Of course I had to borrow the money at the last minute to get it paid for. I am not the rich person many think I am. So I am still involed in a battle with bluecross to try and reverse this decision and policy. I think I have a good chance if I have the right documentation from other pts. that have been paid for by bluecross. It is a shame that money rules over advancements in technology. I would reccomend that anyone with really serious issues do this to be able to have a decent life free of severe pain and drugs. thanks